on being Right and Wrong at the same time

Just for the record, we really do like Turd Ferguson. Most authors here at Screwtape Files University have followed him from the very start over at the old blogspot, and even before that in the comments section at Zero Hedge and also donated (yep). We admire him for his persistence, concern and zeal, but we do have an overall concern that he's being led astray by his sources (and taking many with him) without a proper framework of accountability and research in place.

With the launch of his new paywalled website, couldn't help but noticing the concern some turdites had over the non-secure state of the website. A few commenters wanting to pony up their credit card details noticed there was no encryption on the new site, but Turd had 'talked with his tech people' and announced that there was nothing wrong with the security and that the digital certificate was working [link].


Since this is my area of expertise, I thought I would take a look. Basically Turd is Right and Wrong at the same time - this is normal in the world of technology, where many layers of complexity exist.


Here's how it works:
  • The site is currently accessible under both http and https. At time of writing, the advertised link is http://www.turdtalksmetals.com/ which will take you to the site, but only using normal http (non-secured, running over port 80, for those technically inclined).
  • If he had advertised it as https://www.turdtalksmetals.com/ then that address (same site) uses encryption, and the digital certificate is fine (session is viewed using Secure Socket Layer over port 443).
  • His techies will have tested out the https link, and reported back to him that the digital certificate working fine. So they are right, and he is right, but for anyone using the link he provided in the post, Turd is wrong, and from their perspective his statements above can be proven wrong. His tech people for the new site (which isn't the Shimshock group) forgot to force security so that the login and credit card pages could only be viewed using SSL. They also failed to realise that Turd may have advertised the non-secure link.
  • It's really a end-user psychology issue, not a technical one, since the NSA's super computers can decrypt your encrypted internet stream in realtime anyway, if they really had the desire to.

This is all easily fixed - for example all Turd needs to do is update the link, and some people will be a bit more relieved. Or make the registration page SSL only, or whatever. What I'm interested in, is that it is possible to be both wrong and right at the same time, depending on what perspective the observer has. In addition, it's not possible to be an expert in all areas so Turd had to consult the secure status issue to his subject-matter-experts who got it wrong because their field of assessment was from a limited perspective.  It could be argued that Turd may potentially have the same approach with his silver-side analysis (relying on experts who don't themselves have the full picture), but I don't think that's a fair conflation since tech stuff really is quite complicated, and any commercial website launch will always have teething problems. But it's valid to say that the complexity of the modern metals markets are also underestimated ... perhaps two different observers can study a topic like manipulation and both come up with the wrong interpretation because they both don't have the full picture. Daily life has lots of these situations and to migitate potential errors, we typically defer that kind of assessment to the experts, and trust that those sources:
  1. Aren't playing you and your audience by feeding you deliberately wrong, partial or biased information.
  2. Have proven to have a breadth and depth of knowledge in their subject.
For our own part, we are going to stick with objective analysis and boring fact gathering (and less profanity). For example, Turd's techies also need to ensure that (in SSL mode) that all images and scripts are also delivered via https and not http otherwise the site will also run in 'mixed security mode' - they also need to optimize the content since the website encryption incurs a small performance penalty at the server level and they'll quickly find their server overloaded if they actually do force everything under secure socket layer, depending on their server topology. TF, hope that helps iron out some of the bugs. Peace :)

49 comments:

DarkPurpleHaze said...

http://www.tfmetalsreport.com/comment/182915#comment-182915

Jeanne d'Arc said...

Interesting post, Warren. Often things are, as you say, just down to a matter of perspective.

Just one quick personal point re the Dung Beetle post: I stand by the allegory and would make not one single change if I were to write it again. I say this simply in case some readers think that your post is in any sense an attempt (by me) to 'row back' from my post.

We are, of course, separate contributors with separate sets of views. I would not be able to subscribe, for example, to your first paragraph. But that's the joy of writing for a site with a wide range of opinion!

Jeanne d'Arc said...

@DPH - precisely.

The Big Setup said...

You spent an entire wasted cyber page on TURD? Om my God..

Turkey, Russia, Ukraine And Kazakhstan Further Diversify Into Gold

GM Jenkins said...

Wow, nice catch, Warren,

I think JdA's post has made us all personae non gratae at Turd's, which as you say, is unfortunate since I too am a fan. I thought JdA's post was fair though, since Turd is now making guarantees of short-term future events. Someone who does that either has the right to do it (e.g. actually has omniscient contacts), in which case he should enjoy being called out to better enjoy the sack dance afterwards, or else he does not have the right, and is being irresponsible, and thus should get called out on those grounds.

DarkPurpleHaze said...

No one is persona non grata over there at TFMR. No one.
We're all in this together whether it's here or over there or anyplace else.

There are some serious issue's going on that all of us need to focus on right now. Join the group over there and you'll feel the inclusion unless you come on with an attitude seeking the spotlight and slamming the site and the people.

I hope to meet and greet some of you over there in the future.

Peace out and have a great day!

Jeanne d'Arc said...

@TBS - Not wasted. Both posts have been well-read. I'm proud of any post that can generate a debate of the quality and variety that the last one did, and I hope (and am sure) that Warren will achieve the same with this one.

As I've said before, people don't read Screwtape to be told what they already think. There are plenty of sites already doing that. They read us in order to be challenged in their views, and given new perspectives to think about. Sometimes we succeed in that, sometimes we fail.

But we're not really about giving a running commentary on news events that can be read about ad nauseum elsewhere. Sometimes we do, but frankly there's not a lot of 'value added' to be gained in that respect, imho.

@DPH - Glad to hear it. It would obviously be very unfair for Warren, GM, et al., to be burned at the stake along with me... ;-) Actually, I have posted there from time to time, and generally my comments are well received. And many 'Turdites' comment here, and we appreciate their doing so very much.

Jeanne d'Arc said...

@DPH - oh, and just to make one last point (having read your comment at TF Metals Report, which you pasted above) before I stop hi-jacking Warren's thread... ;-)

The use of a dung beetle was actually a cheeky reference to GM's choice of that creature when talking about the intrinsic value of gold here - it was a sly dig at GM, not Turdites... ;-) And 'Soap' was just a silly joke... If humans revere something normally seen as obnoxious by our species (i.e. a 'turd'), then what would the dung beetle equivalent be..?

The dangers of over-reading allegory, I suppose. Sigh... ;-)

Warren James said...

I knew I wouldn't win any friends by writing this particular piece. I appreciate (and agree with) all the comments above, although I'm sad that DPH has kind of missed the intent and spirit of this article.

Let me try again. Turd had a 100% WRONG statement about the secure site stuff. He also PERSISTED with his asertion because he was advised wrongly by experts who should have known better. But he was 100% right in the context of his own understanding, just like Deep Purple Haze above who has applied his own contextual experience to arrive at an incorrect conclusion. The apparent duality interests me greatly as it relates to awareness and human culture.

The turdites generally need to widen the spectrum of their understanding so they can see that Turd is ingoring some key elements in his silver market analysis such as the 'difficult to buy silver in bulk' train of thought, which is obviously ungrounded but is also apparently being fed to him by his sources. Since no one is holding him accountable I figured someone should start doing just that, for all the reasons that GM stated above.

Warren James said...

I also hope it wasn't lost that I diagnosed and solved Turd's site security issue. That was in fact the starting motivation for this post, I saw that people were confused in the page 1 of the comments and my first instinct was to help out, since I figured it out within minutes of analysing it.

Jeanne d'Arc said...

@Warren,

It wasn't lost on me. Actually, I've just re-read your post, and I feel the need to say that it's actually even better than I'd realised on first reading. Subtle, thoughtful, and - above all - extremely helpful. I wish I could write with just one of those talents... :-)

I reckon you should get a free subscription to Turd Talks Metals for this... ;-)

Now, can you help me out with my printer? Some dung beetles tipped a shed load of creme de menthe into it, and it's playing havoc with my charts...

GM Jenkins said...

It wasn't lost on our friend S Roche either, who left this comment for Turd:

"We all have friends who built on early success, they defeated the naysayers, they made new, important friends who encouraged them and they expanded into new ventures...and we supported them, but...we were fearful that they would ignore basic building blocks of their success and be vulnerable.

Turd, the guy (who has donated money to you) is pointing out a security flaw in your site and the reasons for it...and you shitcan him? Time for a timeout my friend."

Pitch perfect. Seriosuly for a guy who prides himself on not taking himself seriously (he's named himself Turd ferchrissake!), I'm not sure what's gotten into the guy. On his "teaser" video for his site, he comes off sounding like a snake oil salesman, in a way that's antipodal to his past persona. Now he's calling Warren a stalker for charitably (and humanely) exposing his fatuity? LOL.

The Big Setup said...

anyone who "gives" their hard earned money to the arrogant Turd, needs their ass examined.

S Roche said...

I have become a defender of the middle ground...no doubt my middle-of-the-road stance will see me become roadkill.

Incidentally, just discovered today that Comex might, (if my information is correct) settle as much physical gold each year as Bron (OK, The Perth Mint). Going to check my facts, (aspersions welcome) and have some fun with this. CoT indeed!

stephanie said...

I am the tech person who manages TFMetalsReport.com. I do not manage TurdTalksMetals.com. I alerted Turd to the SSL issue over at TurdTalksMetals.com, which is a site run by another company. He contacted them about it yesterday and they told him it was OK. I just emailed him again today explaining why it's not totally "secure" for people. Turd is not a tech guy, so you should not be giving him such a hard time about this. He's a nice guy who actually happens to trust people - so sue him!

I am not speaking for Turd here, but the other site is from my understanding going to be part of a podcast network that is the initiative of this other company. Turd was invited to do this opportunity and felt it would allow him to continue to expand TF Metals Report and keep the main site free.

I actually have my own criticisms about the technical implementation of the site (but we were too busy when they wanted to launch it to do it ourselves, and it was put up in a bit of a rush)...but the thing is, websites are not static. I'm sure these little issues will be fixed over time.

The thing with Turd is that he's just a regular guy who happened to get some web fame. He's not a corporation, he's not a web expert, he's not some slick online marketing guru. So don't expect him to always show up slick and "professional" because he's just a regular dude. Which is why people like him - it's his charm. he's not fake. I have interacted with him personally many times and he is an upstanding, caring guy that you would totally want to sit down and have a beer with. He treats his people very well and he's not a money grubbing scum like some people make him out to be.

That you guys spend so much bandwidth bitching about him is a bit disappointing. He's a good guy - you have a good blog too. You don't need to waste so much space trashing him. Maybe people have gotten so cynical they just can't fathom that a regular, nice guy can get ahead in the world these days. There always has to be a sinister motive.

And no, I wasn't paid to write this message. Trust me, I've worked with other semi-famous guys in other areas of the blogosphere that I would not stick up for.

PS My comments are my own and do not represent TF Metals Report or Shimshock Group.

bay said...

I was kicked off his site so I know whats going on there better than just about anyone. DPH is a water carrier and head cheerleader for Turd and always attacks anyone who questions him or his over zealous mods like Calamity Jane. It's quite pathetic how criticism is deflected there, especially when it is on point like this issue.

Best wishes to all of you here with critical thinking skills, and a desire for honest and truthful debate.

Bay of Pigs

Jeanne d'Arc said...

Hi Stephanie,

Many thanks for stopping by: and we appreciate your comments. Just a few quick thoughts from me before I have to go off to bed. I'm sure the others will want to chime in, however.

We don't spend 'so much bandwidth bitching' about Turd. To my knowledge, there has been only one post overtly critical of Turd in Screwtape's history, and that was my Dung Beetle story. The fact that we have held so many others to account (Turk, Sprott, SGS, etc.) on a regular basis, but hardly focussed on Turd counts for quite a lot, I think.

However, my view is that Turd's recent move to giving 100% guarantees regarding what is essentially just investment advice is (a) irresponsible, and (b) is deserving of debate (given his hard-won prominence in the metals sphere). It is telling that such advice is reminiscent of his exertions to his readers to buy AGQ at the end of April 2011, with similar guarantees of success... And please don't play the 'disclaimer' card here... you know, in your heart, that prominent authors should not promise what is not - and will never be - in their gift to deliver.

No-one has suggested that he's not a nice guy. We have not suggested that he is fake. And we have not said that he is money grubbing scum.

I personally don't think that Turd has any kind of a sinister motive.

And I wouldn't have dreamed of suggesting that you were paid to write your comment.

Finally, Warren wasn't criticising Turd for the security problems at the new site: he was pointing them out, and telling him exactly how to fix them. That is, I imagine, extremely helpful to Turd.

You see what I'm getting at here? I genuinely appreciate your point of view, but almost everything you've said accuses us/me of saying things that we simply did not say. This is similar to those who say that Screwtape is a bearish site (it isn't), or that we're paid shills (we're not). Strawman arguments all, and they're impossible for us or anyone else to engage with.

But there is a real issue here. If a blog host is going to promise the (investment) earth to his/her readers, without the advantage of a functioning crystal ball, then this kind of behaviour is always going to attract criticism and derision. Likewise, a refusal to roll back on demonstrably provable falsehoods (such as silver in bulk attracting a large premium, or SLV not having the silver) does little to add credibility to what otherwise might be a credible message.

It's always going to attract negative comment, and requests for justification, whether from Screwtape or others.

And that would go for any author, no matter how 'nice' or 'regular' they might otherwise be.

JdA

stephanie said...

Thanks for your response, Jeanne. I guess after reading your dung beetle article yesterday, and this one today, I maybe read more snark here with the tech advice than perhaps was intended. All I'm saying is, he's doing what he thinks is right - and you guys are doing what you think is right. There may be some folks out there trying to cheat people by actively hustling...he's not one of them.

I personally don't see him giving 100% guarantees so much as having the firm belief that we are heading into an economic cluster%!#%, and the point of holding physical precious metals isn't so you get a huge return on your investment so much as having some wealth left over after a dollar collapse or hyperinflation. Which is a standard belief in the PM world.

The fact is, we're all heading into uncharted territory, and no-one really knows the future outcome. Maybe you guys are right and Turd is wrong, but maybe you guys are wrong and he's been right all along. Time will tell.

I will say that I'm proud of the TF Metals Report community. There's a great group of people there. They don't all agree, and you don't have to be blindly worshiping Turd (as suggested with the dung beetle analogy) to enjoy the community. Now, Turd's not going to take it too kindly if folks come on board just to insult the pants off of him (and who would?), but reasoned, measured discussion is always welcome.

stephanie said...

PS to Bay of Pigs - You were kicked off the community late last year because you were bullying other members and inciting people to conflict using the messaging system. Yet to this day you still email Turd about once a month to try to butter him up and blame the moderators for your bad behavior. Give it a rest and move on with your life. No-one misses you there.

victorthecleaner said...

stephanie,

thank you for your comments. I think this

but the other site is from my understanding going to be part of a podcast network that is the initiative of this other company. Turd was invited to do this opportunity

is the most valuable information you posted here.

Victor

bay said...

Stephanie/Mod Jane,

Not that it matters, but thanks for exposing yourself to those here. Why are you so concerned about what Turd and I talk about? Do you read his emails too? Sorry, but you didnt just boot me, but other quality posters and great people like Tom Luongo, BSD and Tesla. That is why I teed off on you, and you kicked me off the site. Turd had nothing to do with it and was very suprised when i told him I had been banned. And BTW, I was #1 on the leaderboard over there when you did that. so please get off your high horse and come back down to reality. Your constant paranoid ramblings have hurt that site tremendously. I know, because I ask people why they've left.

It also explains why Turd is going to a pay site and away from your company's involvemnet with him at TFMR. I do wish him well as a friend and long time supporter.

Bay of Pigs

stephanie said...

LOL...Bay of Pigs...do you ever stop to listen to yourself? "I was #1 on the leaderboard"...you do know it's just a website, not a popularity contest? BTW, we turned off anonymous "hat tips" because they were being gamed, so your leaderboard claim doesn't really mean much.

You just don't get it. Turd was fully behind your being kicked off, as well as the entire moderator crew. I actually gave you the benefit of the doubt at first, while all of the other moderators - this is four or five guys, mind you - wanted you gone. If there are people who are agreeing with you on any of this, it's precisely because of all the lies you've written to people about the whole thing.

There's a reason I'm getting your pathetic monthly emails to Turd. He has better things to do than to deal with you. I know it really burns you britches that his website chugs along merrily without you, which is perhaps why you are still obsessed with it and continue on with your obvious Turd Stalking.

As for this: "It also explains why Turd is going to a pay site and away from your company's involvemnet with him at TFMR. I do wish him well as a friend and long time supporter." First of all, you are not his friend. Second, sorry to disappoint you. We really were too busy to do the podcast site and it was simply a matter of bad timing. TF Metals Report is continuing on and will be expanding its content.

PS Jeanne, perhaps you can understand now why Turd gets a little testy at times. He has to deal with this type of insanity and bizarre territorial behavior over his own website. People claiming to be your best buddy while sabotaging you behind your back and badmouthing you all over the Internet. It is the downside over having a cult of personality, which wasn't really his doing in the first place. 'Nuff said!

bay said...

That is some twisted stuff you have going there Steph/Jane.

People that know me and have seen my posts know you are completely full of shit. Not only do you have no shame in insulting others, you have no game to back it up.

My apologies for airing any TFMR issues I have here, but when they ban people for simply disagreeing, you have no way to defend yourself against these pitiful ad hom attacks like this.

Pretty sad state of affairs when people intercept and read emails that arent even theirs. Some might call that dishonest and wrong.

Peace and Aloha,
Bay of Pigs

DarkPurpleHaze said...

Warren said..."...The turdites generally need to widen the spectrum of their understanding...'

Warren...C'mon man. Here we go again with your superior knowledge or attitude like you know better then me or my fellow community members over there. We don't need to be taught or looked down upon and that's what you're doing even if you don't realize it.

If I could post a music vid on here (like I can at TFMR) it would be "Save Yourself" and don't worry about TFMR. That's all I'm saying without animosity.
Just stop with the teachable moments you feel that need to be brought to our attention.

Your help and tongue in cheek way of helping was completely lost on me. My apologies to anyone on here if they're offended by my loyalty to the community I represent right now on here as myself , not a messenger of TF

As far as what Bay is saying, C'mon, get real.
You never did and still don't have a clue what I'm about over there or what my level of involvement is. I'm a regular Turdite who you accuse of doing the very same things you used to do until some 'things' became obvious to those that took notice and saw it for what it became..
Things which you just can't accept or come to a peaceful resolution about. Other then this comment right now, I will not engage and defend against a blatant and growing smear campaign against myself or TFMR or anyone there.
Your full of it and anyone who reads what you've got to keep saying over and over should realize it. You got an axe to grind and you can't stop doing it because you got tossed off the site for a reason. Period.
Move on from it and own it. Stop blaming and own what you own.
Tom L and Tesla should not have their name dragged into this and just for the record Bay....I stuck up for them more then you want to believe or hear or read on a public web site forum.
Stop lumping them in with this whole thing to the extent your doing so that has started to revolve around yourself.
Move on, own it.

stephanie said...

Bay of Pigs wrote: "Pretty sad state of affairs when people intercept and read emails that arent even theirs. Some might call that dishonest and wrong."

Ummm, yeah, you do realize that people who run businesses often have their assistants read their emails and only bring the important ones to their attention. If you are a public figure (which Turd has become), then it's even more important to have a screener...to weed out the STALKERS...like yourself. You took it upon yourself to slam the TFMR community here without provocation, so don't start crying now that people are setting the record straight.

bay said...

DPH,

LOL. Oh did Jane run to you on this? No doubt. Just like old times.

You're dead wrong. I know all those guys very well and they have NOTHING good to say about what happened to all of us over there. Dream on. I talk to them all the time.

Move on? Where do think I've been? Come on over and debate fairly at ZH (where Turd started well before you ever came along), and see how far you get with this garbage.

Bay of Pigs

bay said...

A stalker? Thats rich, Steph. Maybe you could have simply responded and told me you were reading his emails and Turd didn't want to hear from me anymore? No, instead you use that personal info, go on to TFMR and bomb me in front of the "community"? LMAO. You really have no integrity at all, do you?.

And I'm glad this is all becoming known and out in the open. I'll be sharing it all with all my brothers and sisters over at ZH you can be sure of that.

Nice work. I'm sure Turd will be real impressed with your stellar efforts to "promote" his new site.

S Roche said...

Umm...Warren? Are Christmases at your house fun?

Warren James said...

Yes! Been pretty busy here though - what with the renovations and all, but we're hoping to put on a big bash this year (and celebrate the world not ending four days prior). I've got some new contacts who can supply discount liquor, so we're set.

@DPH, re: superiority ... nah, you completely misunderstand me. The debate on whether 'silver bulk purchases with or without huge premiums' got generally squashed by Turd, when it was raised a number of months ago. I am simply here to remind folk that these are fundamental issues as they relate to the silver market which can't just be brushed under the carpet. How can anyone be intellectually honest about a really important topic if they selectively pick and discard their evidence? Just sayin'.

stephanie said...

Just a quick update - the tech team over at TurdTalksMetals.com is fixing the SSL on the form page and it should be ready by tomorrow if not by the time you read this.

stephanie said...

PS That's "tomorrow" in American time. It's still June 26 over here. :-)

Bullion Baron said...

What I want to know... was the "calm down" picture added to the post originally or after the barrage of comments that followed?

Anyhow, the message was not lost on me. Good post Warren.

We should be careful not to rely on "experts" without scrutinizing both their response as well as the way in which we've asked the question.

The Big Setup said...

The dollar exclusion list is becoming bigger and bigger with every passing day as China gets ready.

For simplicity's sake here is the full list of "bilateral" arrangements in the past year as presented previously: "World's Second (China) And Third Largest (Japan) Economies To Bypass Dollar, Engage In Direct Currency Trade", "China, Russia Drop Dollar In Bilateral Trade", "China And Iran To Bypass Dollar, Plan Oil Barter System", "India and Japan sign new $15bn currency swap agreement", "Iran, Russia Replace Dollar With Rial, Ruble in Trade, Fars Says", "India Joins Asian Dollar Exclusion Zone, Will Transact With Iran In Rupees", "The USD Trap Is Closing: Dollar Exclusion Zone Crosses The Pacific As Brazil Signs China Currency Swap."

And now the latest: "China, Chile To Establish Strategic Partnership, Boost Trade... Launch Currency Swap and Settle In Renminbi"

carolina.moonchild said...

Wow! That got UGLY.
Somebody needs to look at herself in a mirror to see what others are seeing, A very unfortunate reflection IMO.

Didn't really know what happened over there a TFMR, just noticed one day a whole bunch of my favorite regulars missing and some mention of mutiny.

Glad to see you've found a home BOP.

Cottonbelt said...

Warren etal … interesting to watch the behaviorial side of online interaction predictably play out as not much has changed when I was first exposed to online discussion forums 1998-ish with the rise of the Internet slowly causing me to loss interest … kudo’s to your site, TFMR and others in the blogosphere as we should all strive to raise awareness w/rational debate (always surprised so many willing to share their IP online) – all the rest is just noise.

zilverexmachina said...

I've been muted at TF metals also, for suggesting attacks on the american population were justified since they are mass murdering random peoples worldwide in their name. This got misquoted as me being a proponent of genocide without me, being muted, having recourse.

Americans have a huge blind spot, especially the nationalist militarist statist idiot authority suck up group thats dominating tfmetals after the "liberal conspiracy" lol was beaten down by their TSA brownshirts headed by lucy "mod jane" napolitano.

They are also very paranoid and afraid, and with every new dissenting poster think its one of the banned people posing as someone else, which highly amuses me.

See you all on zh and goatfuct chat where you can say whatever you want.

bam said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jjscrap said...

zilverexmachina,

>"suggesting attacks on the american population were justified since they are mass murdering random peoples worldwide in their name"

While I don't know the altercation you are referring to, justifying attacks on civilian populations anywhere is pretty weak.

Whatever the American govt may have done, and whatever the stupidity of that average misinformed idiot, there is absolutely no justifying attacks on innocent people.

You can't disparage attacks by the American military overseas, and then justify attacks by US opponents on American soil in the same breath.

Pliny Younger said...

TFMR messed up really bad by letting Stephanie/Moderator Jane rule with iron fists. She makes no bones about using her posistion to defame other quality posters by means of deception, that being peering into Personal Message accounts. So all you TFMR peeps out there using PMs and think you are having private conversations think again. That may surprise some and not others but the info is out there, you are being watched.

Jeanne d'Arc said...

Well, isn't this cosy?

This is all your doing, Warren. You know what happens every time we let you write a post about http vs. https. It just goes mental.

I hope you're proud of your pot-stirring... Once again, I expect it'll be down to me to dampen the flames of conflict and bring this site back to harmony. Sigh... ;-)

@S Roche: this is Christmas in the d'Arc household...

Funky Tape said...

I still have my original account at Turds (Dr Durden) but I haven't used it in months. I tried to make the point early on what would happen to the site if the mod staff didn't set up a clear TOS and was fair and balanced to all view points.

I've seen web forum after web forum go through the growing pains and Turd's was no exception. Not sure how many times I talked about this (including PM exchanges to at least one Mod about it) but it seems like a lot. Funny how nearly every time I mentioned something about it, some member would PM me saying "you're, right...I agree with you."

Here's how it usually goes...

First it's cool cause no one knows about it (old blogspot).
Then it gets very popular fast and everyone gets along (new website).
Then the "trolls" show up. Keep in mind, a "troll" is misnamed 90% of the time. Same thing with "shill."
Then everyone fights.
The mod staff doubles.
Then some people leave.
Then they come back.
Then the "trolls" start getting banned.
The mod staff triples.
Then everyone is happy again but membership is down 50%.
Those that left start their own site and the process continues....

Where are we today? Exactly.

jjscrap said...

Again, no real dog in the fight, but there was some 'interesting' reading overnight at TFMR:

http://www.tfmetalsreport.com/blog/3958/july-silver-option-expiration?page=6#new

Particularly the last 3 pages.

There are some strange people on TFMR, more so than I realized.

Jeanne d'Arc said...

@jjscrap (bam) and Funky Tape (Dr Durden)

Did you read this post of mine? It's pertinent to what you both say.

Funky Tape said...

JdA - Yep, sure did. You nailed it.

And I did comment in that thread below about the whole victimization part of the cult. That's what really made me lose interest - trolls will be trolls, mods will be mods, guys like DPH will never change, etc. I had no issue with that. It was the constant cry baby bullshit that got old really quickly. What's the value of a community that now bases it's existence and function trying to "beat" the 'Cartel?'

Disclaimer: I donated to the site early on and even wear my "Then end of the great Keynesian experiment is upon us, prepare accordingly" T-shirt on a regular basis.

jjscrap said...

Whelp, there's a veritable potpourri of dogmatism over there the last few days Jeanne. This beauty is from today's thread (I guess I've just become a gossip. Not proud.):

The world is filled with trolls and few prophets. Most have a high value on their own wisdom and discount anything that does not fit into their own roadway of understanding. It takes a Powerful force within to break our basket full of lifetime events which have formed our trollism. The majority mind set will set the future direction of the masses. One must pray that a true seer will come forth who will redirect the minority to the Truth.

I like the scripture John 8:48 wherein the real trolls in that era, who were the 99.99% majority, spoke to Jesus "The Jews answered Him, are we not right when we say You are a Samaritan and that You have a demon ( that you are under the power of an evil spirit)"?

This site of Mr. T.F.'s is unique. There is enough friendship among the members to allow a true troll and/or a true prophet access to break the group mentality. Try that in the church system or the political system or even the school system and see how quickly the door will be opened for ones exit.

zilverexmachina said...

Praise jebus, holy shitsnacks, he even has biblequotes hardcoded in the site footer.

I once made some snark about the jewskies with their golden calf, which is highly appropriate on a relinut metal site.

But it got deleted for being offtopic.

KJ said...

Warren,

"What I'm interested in, is that it is possible to be both wrong and right at the same time, depending on what perspective the observer has..."

and

"...perhaps two different observers can study a topic like manipulation and both come up with the wrong interpretation because they both don't have the full picture..."


Pretty much my thoughts about Turd, Sprott, Embry, Turk, Harvey, KWN, etc. Although some could be categorized as wrong but don't know they're wrong whereas as others I might classify as wrong, know it, but revenue streams to protect & a sneaking suspicion they're gonna clean up when the paper prices plummet.

But since we're talking about Turd, question has always remained - is Turd capable of seeing the light? Astute contributors have put a fork in many of the silver myths & yet Turd stands by his flawed foundation.

Just b/c Turd has, imo, flawed premises about the paper gold/silver markets, doesn't mean I'm anti-Turd. I think he's a genuine guy who does, first and foremost, promote the notion of buying physical metals since the 'reset' is inevitable.

But is that enough? Strategy/recommendations based on flawed premises?

The problem for Turd, and I'll include Harvey here, is that although they are aware of FOFOA/archives, it is clear they do not share the same view/foundation. And what is problematic, imo, is they will not be credible in my eyes & many others until such time as they either debunk the freegold thesis or they understand and accept it. And to accept free gold publicly would shatter their current public world view.

Until then, Turd is right in promoting holding physical metals, but for the right (ie. hyperinflation) and wrong reasons (ie. silver myths). And he's actually fundamentally wrong (though I'm sure there's some correct premises) in his paper trading strategy/recommendations for basing them on flawed/incorrect premises, that in fact, have been discussed ad nauseum by contributors/commentators on this blog and others.

The challenge to Turd, Harvey, etc. is that to make whole their credibility, they will either need to debunk the free gold thesis or accept it.

Surely, if Turd has not read FOFOA in its entirety & does not understand its foundation, he is doing all his readers a disservice, no?

Stephanie wrote:

"The fact is, we're all heading into uncharted territory, and no-one really knows the future outcome. Maybe you guys are right and Turd is wrong, but maybe you guys are wrong and he's been right all along. Time will tell."

Freegold observers would disagree; the future outcome was determined some time ago. Perhaps you can recommend to Turd to take on a legitimate freegold study?

Warren James said...

Hi KJ, good to hear from you, it's been a while between drinks.

Those are good thoughts (and I would include Armstrong as being in the same predicament). FOFOA and friends are uncovering increasing bits of evidence to support the thesis (and Beer Holiday just had his 'aha' moment :).

I guess Turd will always have an audience, even if it's a case of 'tickle my ear and I'll pay for your show'. I don't mean that in a disrespectful way; it's more to say there is a large enough threshhold of like-minded folk within their niche ideologies that they don't feel forced to address anything wider (like freegold). It's a hope that newcomers can spot the relative merits of each, but that is too much to ask .. normally the team that does the most advertising, wins.

For Turd himself? The force is strong in this one. I too, see good in him. ;)

Jeanne d'Arc said...

Oh, and apropos of nothing:

@Bay of Pigs - I was browsing today through some old Screwtape posts, and came across this one that I wrote, which focusses on the silverogosphere's accusations that we're all just a load of Bankster Shills. And I was surprised to see that you'd actually been quoted in it...

"Bay of Pigs: They [the Screwtape Files] are useless tools on gold or silver, IMO. Better off to ignore them. They have deadpanning [sic] gold and silver and supporting the MSM status quo since I can remember. They don't acknowledge anything being wrong/corrupted in the markets (especially the COMEX).

You posted it here, at TF Metals Report in January this year.

Are we now to assume that, post-expulsion from Turd's site, you've had chance to reconsider your earlier views about our humble site..? ;-)

JdA